Note: The title of her post was: "THIS SPEAKS
VOLUMES!!!!!" regarding an article Denise had read
and couldn't wait to spread on the forum.
The article text is in blue
Denise's comments are in purple.
My replies are in red.
Yes, it speaks volumes and we
have all heard the saying about protesting too loudly.
Let me address your points. Some of the points concerning
personal indiscretions of certain Franciscans can be
disregarded, or we can start an investigation into the
entire Catholic church for all the many indiscretions
by priests over the centuries.
Everybody, please remember that
many of the indiscretions of both Franciscans and secular
clergy in this region are unrelated to Medjugorje, but
are related to the Herzegovina Affair which began in
the 1800's and has not stopped even today, as evidenced
by the bahaviour of Pavao Zanic and his successor Ratko
Peric. This is a long and painful history. Detractors
like to drag in unrelated indiscretions and connect
dots with the apparitions themselves. See http://www.marian-times.com
for more information on all these events.
[quote="Denise"] Of
the six children who originally reported visions from
Mary, sometimes daily, one says she still receives messages
from Mary on the 25th of each month. They are published
online, eagerly awaited by a large network of Christians
dedicated to Medjugorje.
[/quote]
People, why is the endurance
of the messages a cause for concern. The visionaries
themselves asked Our Lady why she is here for so long
and they repeatedly asked her when she was going to
show the long-awaited sign. She replied "Are you
tired of me already?" And they never asked that
question again. Mary is continuing to try and hold God's
hand from striking the earth. The longer the better.
She is waiting for more conversions. Detractors who
write smearing articles are actually prolonging it as
souls are slow to respond or actually remain lost by
their efforts.
[quote]According to Bishop Ratko
Peric of Mostar-Duvno, whose diocese includes Medjugorje,
the messages now number more than 30,000, a fact that
only increases his own skepticism about the authenticity
of the apparitions.[/quote]
I don't know how or why it can
cause one to be skeptical. I see no problem. I am thankful
for Mary's continued presence. Take a look at the world
and how much more needs to be done. Mary is very busy
in Medjugorje. How many people know that she leads a
prayer group in Medjugorje? She teaches a special group
of young people for example how to pray the Our Father
and other prayers with the heart. How does she teach
them? Through Ivan. Mary is actually present with Ivan
and makes comments about certain people in the room,
e.g. how they are doing in their prayers, etc.
[quote]Bishop Peric discussed
Medjugorje with Pope Benedict XVI earlier this year
during a visit to the Vatican. In a summary of the discussion
published in his diocesan newspaper, Bishop Peric said
he had reviewed the history of the apparitions with
the pope, who already was aware of the main facts from
his time as head of the Congregation for the Doctrine
of the Faith.
"The Holy Father told me:
[b]We at the congregation always asked ourselves how
can any believer accept as authentic apparitions that
occur every day and for so many years?"[/b] Bishop
Peric said.
[i]So, our Holy Father is saying
that it is pretty much absurd to accept this?[/i] [/quote]
No, you have to remember the
context. Bishop Peric, by this stage, is on the outside
as far as Medjugorje is concerned. He's been censured
by the Vatican. But, he is "humored" by the
Vatican nonetheless. If JPII made this comment, we can
take it as a polite way of hearing Peric out without
committing to saying anything negative about Medjugorje.
He is saying "Yes Bishop Peric, it does seem unusual
and therefore must be difficult for many people to accept",
but secretly he is thinking "Please Mary, show
this guy you are for real!"
[quote]Bishop Peric noted that
Yugoslavian bishops in 1991 issued a statement that
"it cannot be confirmed that supernatural apparitions
or revelations are occurring" at Medjugorje.[/quote]
Yes, indeed, this is the standard
approach for apparitions. Actually, when the Bishop
of Mostar's initial findings (constat de non-supernaturalite)
were rejected by the Vatican and the task handed to
the Yugloslavia Bishops Conference, the conference wanted
to endorse Medjugorje, but they felt they owed some
deference to Bishop Zanic and tried to drag out the
process in the hopes that the apparitions would finally
stop. This didn't happen, so they had talks with Bishop
Zanic to address his "unfounded opposition".
They reported that when they told the Bishop that his
opposition was unfounded, he cried and shouted at them
and finally they let him have his way. The result is
in the Zadar Declaration "We cannot prove categorically
that apparitions are occuring". It's like a conciliatory
compromise position to appease the Bishop of Mostar.
[quote]Bishop Peric said he told
the pope that his own opinion was even stronger -- not
only that a supernatural element cannot be proven, but
that [b]"it is certain that these events do not
concern supernatural apparitions."[/b][/quote]
Yes, and we can quite easily imagine the pope's polite
and patient reaction as we have come to expect from
JPII. Other priests and bishops have spoken favorably
about the apparitions, saying there is no reason to
doubt the sincerity of the visionaries or the spiritual
effects among pilgrims. At Medjugorje, the debate over
authenticity has been largely set aside by the [b]Franciscan
friars who minister to pilgrims and keep in contact
with the visionaries.[/b]
[i]Largely set by defrocked priests!
[/i] [/quote]
It is saying that the Franciscans
are not getting involved in all the detraction and hooha.
They are just getting on with ministering to the people,
just as they did back as far as the 1800's when they
were building parishes all over Yugloslavia for the
Catholic church, before some unscrupulous and canniving
secular bishops essentially conned (yes conned!) the
vatican into having the parishes handed over to them.
Not many people on this forum know the history, and
they make foolish comments. Please read "The Truth
about the Herzegovina Affair"
[quote]"We are not here
to give a judgment about whether the apparitions are
true or not.
[i]Then why are you yourselves
publishing these message hoaxes? [/i] [/quote]
You have decided they are hoaxes?
What is your agenda? Why make a judgement yourself on
it? Why not wait? Why deliberately put people off and
cast aspersions on priests in Medjugorje in the process?
[quote]We're here to follow the
people who come, to hear their confessions, to give
them pastoral care," said Father Sesar, the 39-year-old
pastor. Father Sesar said that, while early pilgrims
to Medjugorje may have been drawn there by curiosity
or a thirst for supernatural signs like rosaries turning
different colors, that is less true today. Much more
significant are the long lines for confession that form
every day, he said. [i]Ever heard
of collective possession?[/i]
[/quote]
So, now we're casting aspersions
and sniggering at well-intentioned people and basically
calling them morons for being led up the garden path.
Ever heard of an itchy trigger finger? The long lines
at the confessionals are one of the precious fruits
of Medjugorje and one of the reasons why the Vatican
is keen to seal their approval on it and will certainly
never condemn Medjugorje easily. Cardinal Schönborn
told Cardinal Ratzinger that if Medjugorje were closed,
he would also have to close the Seminary in Vienna,
because the majority of those candidates had received
their call to the priesthood through Medjugorje. To
this, Cardinal Ratzinger replied: "Closing Medjugorje
is not even a question"
[quote]"The biggest things
in Medjugorje today are prayer and the sacraments. It's
no longer a place where people come to see miracles.
They are coming for spiritual growth," he said.
[i]You can get some spiritual
growth right in front of the tabernacle at your own
parish or read the lives of the saints.[/i][/quote]
So let's call all pilgrimages
silly. Cancel your flights to Fatima, Lourdes, Rome.
It looks like some of us need to read the lives of saints
who had developed patience and respect for others.
[quote]Considerable attention,
however, is still given to the apparitions and messages
which one of the visionaries, Marija Pavlovic-Lunetti,
says she continues to receive. She now lives with her
husband and children in Italy. The message from May
2006 strikes a pious tone typical of most of the thousands
of alleged communications over the last 25 years: "Decide
for holiness, little children, and think of heaven.
Only in this way will you have peace in your heart that
no one will be able to destroy. Peace is a gift, which
God gives you in prayer."
[i]Same message for 25 years?
Gee, a broken record![/i]
[/quote]
You are failing to see the salient
point. And frankly, by your tone I think you've gotten
in a bit deep with the attitude. The point is that by
the simplicity of the messages, which are purely Christian
and canonical, we can rule out scam and satan, because
scammers and satan will try to spice things up and to
"sell" something. This is bread and butter
Catholic stuff Mary is asking. She is saying "get
these simple things right first". No-one can condemn
Mary or the apparitions through simple messages. They
can only condemn themselves for laughing at the basic
catholic requirements of prayer, holiness and peace,
and calling them a "broken record". If Mary
is asking regularly for the same things, it is because
not enough people are listening to her. Perhaps she
also sees that many people are coming to Medjugorje
out of curiosity and deliberately bursts their bubble
by saying "OK, excitement's over, time for prayer"
[quote]At the Vatican, officials
said they are still monitoring events at Medjugorje,
but [b]emphasized that it was not necessarily the Vatican's
role to issue an official judgment on the alleged apparitions
there.[/b]
[i]That is because the Vatican
knows that it is up to the bishop over that diocese
to make the final decisions. Of course we see how many
people are being disobedient to that canon Law![/i]
[/quote]
Wrong again. The bishop had
his chance and blew it, but the vatican will still politely
entertain what he says and even act on it if they think
it is reasonable. The vatican oversees everything. If
the so-called "disobedience" were something
out of hand, they would have censured Medjugorje a long
time ago. No, most of the disobedience DOES NOT RELATE
TO MEDJUGORJE OR THE APPARITIONS DIRECTLY. It goes back
to the Herzegovina Affair, long before the apparitions
started. Please read the history before misleading people
any more with the "disobedience" line.
[quote]More than once in recent
years, the [b]Vatican has said that dioceses or parishes
should not organize official pilgrimages to Medjugorje.
[/b]That reflects the policy of the bishops.
[i]Yet we have the Vocations Director
of the Marians and the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal
do just what they have been ordered by Rome not to do!
How holy is that?[/i] [/quote]
Wrong again. Pilgrimages ARE
ALLOWED. The only stipulation is that accompanying priests
are not (yet) allowed to pass the apparitions off as
authentic, until the apparitions are decided on, which
won't happen while the apparitions are still ongoing
and/or until the promised sign arrives.
[quote]But the Vatican has also
said Catholics are free to travel to the site, and that
if they do the church should provide them with pastoral
services.
[i]A catholic is free to travel
anywhere in the world and receive pastoral care. Duh!
So many people take this to mean an approval but that
ain't so. [/i] [/quote]
It seems pilgrims are less concerned
whether it is approved than some people are about it
being DIS-approved. These people, like everybody else,
will wait for the vatican to judge on Medjugorje and
meanwhile they will go to Medjugorje and pray. It is
only the detractors who want it condemned ASAP. And
we should seriously be asking ourselves WHY. It appears
that something or someone (and I have a good idea who)
wants to shut this up as soon as possible and is influencing
all kinds of people to joining the cause.
[quote]That has left a margin
of ambiguity among Catholics. Adding to the confusion
have been claims that the late Pope John Paul II strongly
supported Medjugorje in various private statements;
[b]the Vatican has never confirmed those statements.[/b]
[i]The Vatican didn't but Cardinal
Ratzinger did in an interview with a German publication.
I think it is posted in the long thread we have here.[/i][/quote]
Saying something is not confirmed
is just another way of saying "Well, I didn't actually
have a tape recorder running at the time, so I can't
prove it to you, Mr reporter". There is a very
large list of statements and actions on my website http://www.marian-times.com/articles/medjugorje/vatican-on-medjugorje.cfm.
Even if one or two of them are false, what about the
rest. There are letters of commendation, support, newspaper
articles all documented. It can't all be wrong!
[quote]
After Pope Benedict was elected, it was rumored that
as a cardinal he had once traveled incognito to Medjugorje,
and that as pope he could be expected to officially
approve the site as a Marian shrine. In his February
visit to the Vatican, Bishop Peric said he spoke to
the pope about these rumors, [b]and that the pontiff
only laughed in surprise.[/b]
[i] And the pope LAUGHED! [/i]
[/quote]
I'm laughing too, because I can
just see the pope smiling and chuckling and trying to
humour Bishop Peric. Laughing in surprise is a sure
fire way to give face to someone, while not disagreeing
with them outwardly. Try it some time.
[quote]
Pope Benedict, who headed the doctrinal congregation
for 24 years, once said the multiplication of Marian
apparitions was a "sign of the times" and
should not be discounted.
[i] A sign of the times, hum now
let me think. A sign of the times in the bible doesn't
mean that the signs are good. [/i]
[/quote]
So, what should we do about it.
Certainly not mock and laugh at people who want to repent
and definitely not put them off doing so with said mockery.
[note: She thinks the Pope is referring to the apparitions
as being the actual sign of the times, but in fact this
statement says that God is sending Mary BECAUSE of the
times, i.e. Mary's presence is in response to the way
the world is headed.
.... more later.....such a lot
of misunderstanding to clear up...
